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Jonathon 'Keg' Gimblett
User: [info]berserkir
Name: Jonathon 'Keg' Gimblett
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Ramblings of a nonsensical pillock -
Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for ragnarok

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09:19 am June 28th, 2007
berserkir
[info]berserkir
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$115 million funding for Christian chaplains in Australian schools.

So essentially thats a giant 'fuck you' to students of other religions and $115 mil that could have been used to buy resources for proper educations.

I have no problem with churches, mosques, temples whatever, in fact I think many are very pretty and most of the people are nice. I just think it's better to keep the brainwashing of our youngsters in the home and not in PUBLIC government run schools.

Hopefully the kiddies get a better Chaplain than mine. I lost count of how many times I got kicked out of scripture class in primary school for "disrupting the class with too many questions". :P

Hell... $115 mil for Buddhist monks would have been better. Less chance of crankiness plus the martial arts would keep the little tackers fit!

Or hey, how about multifaith chaplains or hell, lets go crazy and just have a councellor who can offer helpful advice for troubled kids other than "Well god says this..."

People make me cranky sometimes.

In other news, my everything hurts like biscuits :/

Oh and for any smartass that feels like commenting about "Wah wah, christian founded country" just shut it and hop over to Iraq, or Iran or wherever this months "Evil brown people with weird gods" live.

Let's start a fund to put a Richard Dawkins book in every school in Australia! Mwuhahahahahha! :D

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Current Location: Westfield, Western Australia
Mr Flibble is: sore
Rockabilly skank?: Dark Moor - Eternity
33 tally-ho's or Give one to ol' fritzy!
Comments
Thread started by Contemptuous arbiter
tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 28th, 2007 03:18 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
"
Oh and for any smartass that feels like commenting about "Wah wah, christian founded country" just shut it and hop over to Iraq, or Iran or wherever this months "Evil brown people with weird gods" live."


Actually, it's more so that (According to the 2001-2006 period WIKIPEDIA GOGO) 63% of the population identify themselves as Christian. An increase in funding to help educate children about the religion that they're really, really pretty likely to follow isn't unreasonable at all! Especially considering the next largest religious group (Buddhist, like you jokingly referenced) is only a bit over 2%.
There's nothing wrong with 'brainwashing' kids into the culture and ethics system our country is largely based around and which the majority of the population subscribes to.
I went to a Catholic school and the religious teachings, which prevalent, weren't particularly invasive, I imagine it'd be even less 'offensive' in a government school.

(Reply) (Thread)
berserkir From: [info]berserkir Date: June 28th, 2007 03:26 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by it, (it bores me more than anything) I just don't believe it belongs in public schools. And while yes, 63% identify as christians, that still leaves a large section of others plus then you have the many different flavours of christianity, some of which would indeed by offended by their children being exposed to another form of it.

Ultimately I believe the $20,000 alloted to each school for a Christian chaplain would be much better spent buying books, upgrading facilities or even educating existing teachers on counselling techniques. Because really I think anyone who is willing to be a teacher would be more than willing to lend a helpful ear and advice to a student in need.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 28th, 2007 03:37 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
I understand what you mean. I do think that a lot of parents would like their kids to learn about their religion though. Plus, most religious education stuff is morals and ethics (From my experience), philosophy stuff that is pretty good for kids to learn.
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reaps From: [info]reaps Date: June 28th, 2007 03:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Wouldn't they be better off learning that at some kind of religious institution? Like, say, a Church?
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tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 28th, 2007 04:02 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Yes! Perhaps! Though, most people want comfort and guidance without putting effort in. When those people are your electorate and populace, I guess it makes sense to legislate in ways that make their lives better.
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utopos From: [info]utopos Date: June 28th, 2007 06:06 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Don't talk nonsense.

Churches aren't a safe venue for religious instruction. Look at the history of Christian sectarian violence alone - would you want people that wage crusades teaching your kids?

Incense can cause asthmatics to choke, and the kneeling stands installed in many venues are barely comfortable if not outright safety hazards to posture and development. The buildings themselves are prone to bad maintenance and are often liable to collapse.

Plus the clergy and laypeoples that frequent religious centres aren't adequately screened for their suitability to work with children - teachers are subjected to at least a basic screening process.

A fit teaching environment for our kids - I think not!
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arinellen From: [info]arinellen Date: June 28th, 2007 06:37 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
I guess it's a way of creating a place to say "these morals are good" in an everyday environment and touch people who don't go to church.
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stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: June 29th, 2007 07:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
But morals are subjective (and Christian morality a very different thing from say, other cultures), and for that matter you don't need a "man in the sky" threat to teach children right from wrong.
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arinellen From: [info]arinellen Date: June 30th, 2007 05:31 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Sure, but some people find it the easiest way. *shrugs* Of course they are subjective. But then what's top say don't go and kill someone else? WAIT: this will end in tears. I see it as a way for most people to have a reason to have morals. And they do sort of align with Australia's accepted morals and laws.
I never said it was a good way to teach morals. Just an easy way. *shrugs*
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stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: June 30th, 2007 10:14 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
I think most child-level concepts of morality go without saying - I mean, don't kill people, don't steal... they're not hard concepts to instill anyway.

But... not taking the lords name in vain? I mean how is that even relevant in todays society? :P
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
berserkir From: [info]berserkir Date: June 30th, 2007 11:33 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Sod that, I prefer "Don't kill innocent people" :P
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arinellen From: [info]arinellen Date: July 26th, 2007 06:33 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
I don't know, you say they aren't hard yet there are still a lot of people who steal, or cheat etc. (I want to point it's the ones that people may be able to get away with without punishment)
I would think they are fairly

It's only as relivant as the people you are with, so I suppose 'today's society' at least for you doesn't include that (today's society still includes Grandma's and my Dad who hate it).
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: July 26th, 2007 07:28 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Way to answer a month-old comment :P
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
arinellen From: [info]arinellen Date: July 26th, 2007 07:31 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
It's been sitting in my inbox and I wanted it out. :D At least now it is DONE. *chuckles*
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
utopos From: [info]utopos Date: June 28th, 2007 06:12 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
The Federal Government already funds atheism by teaching science (although the national teaching standards are under attack by "Intelligent Design" proponents).
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
pooxs From: [info]pooxs Date: July 5th, 2007 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
and when are these teachers going to find the time to be educated, let alone counsel the students?
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lori_lee69 From: [info]lori_lee69 Date: June 28th, 2007 03:44 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
But there are a lot of ppl who's religion is 'Christian' by default, because they were baptised or whatever and so consider themselves Christian but aren't practising Christians. Which type of Christian does that statistic represent? I'm sure the percentage of the population who attend a Christian church regularly and have done so for 5 or more years (to weed out the faddish Hillsong-types) would be much less than 63%.

I agree though, that some education in Christianity is a useful thing. The study of Christianity doesn't necesarily mean you have to believe in the things you are learning about. I can learn about meerkats without having to want to BE a meerkat (although it would be cool! lol) and Christianity has influenced so many areas of modern society whether we appreciate it or not (our calendar, laws, biblical allusions in literature, the golden rule, festivals and holidays etc etc)

However, from my experience, a chaplain doesn't run scripure classes, they provide spiritual and emotional support to the students. They're counsellors basically, who are Christian.

I had a freakin awesome chaplain at my school, her name was Tracey and she looked like LeAnn Rimes. She had a wikid sense of humour and everyone loved her. She was really approachable and down to earth and helped out a lot of kids, most of which were non-christians. I see nothing wrong with the government spending money to put people like this in schools.

But yes, why just christian chaplains? I understand christian kids probably need a different approach or another dimension to their counselling due to their specific beliefs. But they can get that from their church/youth group and non-christian kids would have their own needs too which won't be met by a christian chaplain.

My opinion (let's face it, the only one that counts =op ) is that the money is best spent on putting suitable people in schools... and that could be uni-educated counsellors, youth workers or christian chaplains (they do diplomas and degrees too) but shouldnt be limited to one religion and one type of student.


(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 28th, 2007 04:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
That statistic just represents people that consider themselves Christian, actually. They don't have to meet any other criteria at all!

I see what you mean and agree (Your meerkat metaphor reminds me of someone I know as well) but how would you choose when to put in Christian Chaplains and when to put in someone else?
I understand what you mean about lots of different types of people being able to provide that same resource to students but surely it is easier to get just Chaplains than have some huge recruitment drive for a variety of different 'counsellor type' people. It's a bit about efficiency as well, that money could hire a LOT of Chaplains (I guess because they don't have high wages and they're easy to hire and stuff) or hire a few councellors, youth workers etc etc. A variety wouldn't be bad at all but you'd just have to set odd justifications for who goes where. Blanket guidelines probably work better!
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
japester From: [info]japester Date: June 28th, 2007 06:42 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
You do realise that Christianity ripped off all the pagan holidays and claimed them as its own?
How to take over the world 101.
Steal the holidays.
If you look at all the Christian 'dates' they fall on the solstices.
but we digress, slightly ;)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
lori_lee69 From: [info]lori_lee69 Date: June 28th, 2007 07:30 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
yah i was waiting for someone to comment on that... all afternoon.. just waiting... all alone... lol =op

Yeh, but the christian kidnapping and ass-raping of them is part of the story.

They're most often celebrated now not in the original pagan form or the christian form, but in some mashed up pick-your-favourite-bits-and-buy-some-crap manner. Like Easter here falls in autumn but we still have a lot of 'spring' kinda stuff. But it's difficult to live here and not pick up some of the christian elements from easter/xmas etc etc and i think it's better to learn about it properly than just pick up incorrect or incomplete bits and bobs
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
japester From: [info]japester Date: June 28th, 2007 07:38 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
Indeed. :)
I think you have it just right. What are we celebrating now? Certainly not what the original intent was. Now it just feels like we are celebrating commercialism.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
kadeton From: [info]kadeton Date: June 28th, 2007 07:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
I think it's not so much that we celebrate commercialism, more that we've commercialised celebration.

I would also venture that the process of 'stealing' holidays was more cultural pressure from the converted population than a deliberate act by any Church. If converts are going to continue celebrating their traditional holidays, but are happy for their religious leaders to append new connotations onto those celebrations, why stop them?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: June 29th, 2007 03:16 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'm not being a smartass, your opinions just irk me :P Let me know if you don't care
19% of Western Australians identify as non-religious. Enjoy.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 29th, 2007 04:18 am (UTC) (Link)

I... I guess you sure showed me?
Oh and for any smartass that feels like commenting about "Wah wah, christian founded country" just shut it and hop over to Iraq, or Iran or wherever this months "Evil brown people with weird gods" live."


Actually, it's more so that (According to the 2001-2006 period WIKIPEDIA GOGO) 63% of the population identify themselves as Christian. An increase in funding to help educate children about the religion that they're really, really pretty likely to follow isn't unreasonable at all! Especially considering the next largest religious group (non-religious) is only a bit under 20%.
There's nothing wrong with 'brainwashing' kids into the culture and ethics system our country is largely based around and which the majority of the population subscribes to.
I went to a Catholic school and the religious teachings, which prevalent, weren't particularly invasive, I imagine it'd be even less 'offensive' in a government school.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: June 29th, 2007 06:59 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I... I guess you sure showed me?
You know, for someone using anecdotal evidence as the basis of their argument, you sure are full of yourself.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
tattered_pinion From: [info]tattered_pinion Date: June 29th, 2007 11:28 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I... I guess you sure showed me?
I'm a man of many talents.

I guess being the first person to actually put forward an argument means I thought I could get away with being less than stirling.

My position still stands though, there's still a huge percentage of the Australian public who consider themselves Catholic and Catholic Chaplains provide really great services beyond preaching.

I guess Keg's empassionated rantings just rub me the wrong way sometimes(Sup Keg, we should drink the beer sometime! I'll hassle Reaps into organising a PlanetParty)!
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
Thread started by dragonwyn
From: [info]dragonwyn Date: June 28th, 2007 03:51 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah ... i was a bit taken aback at this government proposal ... when i have friends who teach in public schools in the outer west of Sydney where they cannot even afford basic supplied for art classes let alone computers or luxury items for classrooms - it's quite bizzare that they might be able to get funding for a chaplain?!!! gah.
(Reply) (Thread)
pooxs From: [info]pooxs Date: July 1st, 2007 09:44 am (UTC) (Link)
at my school "chaplain" equates to "psychologist the kids are willing to go to (that happens to not have a degree)".

I would gladly go without the minimal resources we do have to keep our Chaplain working. you _don't_ want those kids in your class (if you did it would be pointsless have basic supplies because you wouldn't be able to use them)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
Comment by Chris
kadeton From: [info]kadeton Date: June 28th, 2007 08:12 am (UTC) (Link)
"It's no more of a cross-over between church and state than the Government funding church schools," [Mr Howard] said on Channel 9.

No shit. That was supposed to be a justification?
(Reply) (Thread)
Thread started by Lady Merencara
From: [info]airforcegrrl Date: June 28th, 2007 01:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
"Wah wah, christian founded country"
Pardon my American Ignorance but wasn't Australia originally a penal colony? Or is that how they all were rehabilitated, with Bible Thumping?
(Reply) (Thread)
berserkir From: [info]berserkir Date: June 28th, 2007 04:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
It was a Penal colony, used for farming, logging etc.

And of course, being all English they were all Christians :P
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
Comment by Samantha James
stawberi From: [info]stawberi Date: June 29th, 2007 03:17 am (UTC) (Link)
And you'd get more Buddhist monks to your dollar :D
(Reply) (Thread)
Comment by Kate
pooxs From: [info]pooxs Date: July 1st, 2007 09:31 am (UTC) (Link)
our chaplain is christian, and she is the nicest and least judgemental person I've ever met. she is a gift to both the students and teachers, and I'm glad she is getting some of that money.

every school chaplian I've met, be they private or public schools one has been more "multifaith" than christian.

one bad egg doesn't mean you should chuck the rest
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33 tally-ho's or Give one to ol' fritzy!

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